More proactive mix repair capabilities please

David Snow

Updated December 06, 2018 15:13

June 16, 2018 13:19

As this softwares’ primary purpose of EQing a room and speakers becomes fully realized, I truly hope the company moves forward and, see’s the secondaries needs of its product.

Phase TWO of this software is should be concerned with REPAIR OF PRIOR BAD MIXES! This is the logical phase II and I think we are actually at the need for this phase now.

Here’s is the current state of things-

1) You analyse and fix your room so that the speakers are operating correctly. showing what’s really being played on them. Fantastic

Now what? New mixes will surely benefit...great.

But what about 35 years of OLD mixes?

Well, the most common secondary phenomena i would guess will be the realization that there are problems with PRIOR mixes.

OK, so why does sonar works STOP at just showing what’s wrong? Logic would indicate that it would be very simple to superimpose the INVERSE of the EQ correction on prior mixes to FIX THEM.

Please guys, this is where you need to go next. And you’ll get a lot ore customers because your program will be capable of fixing bad mixes! A twofold purpose and capability most likely not much more complicated that the original programming.

As the software stands now, it is HIDING data from us. It gives a very rough graph, without specific frequencies and boosts and Q values. Perhaps the company is worried that showing too much of what the program found will allow users to not use their software and just use other EQs. But i doubt that really. Its not that expensive, and, you still need the software to analyze the room. But whatever the reason the graph out read out is so vague and unusable, this program completely neglects and misses out on the opportunity to FIX bad mixes. This program Its like a dentist that tells you whats wrong with your teeth but doesn’t know how to fix them. lol.

I hear old mixes of mine that have problems now that my speakers are accurate. I really need an inverse mastering EQ curve to start the process of fixing these old mixes. I could do it by ear, but why shouldn’t I be able to take advantage of the nice start the software gave me, and get a pre set that I can use to start my “mix fixing”? Invert the room fix onto the audio file and you start to correct the bad mix. Submitted with all due respect, David

Kārlis Stenders June 19, 2018 13:44 (Edited June 19, 2018 14:42)

That's an intriguing thought, although I can't exactly see how that could be implemented. The first problem I see is replicating the setup you had, say, 2 years ago. The frequency response and the matching correction curve only apply to your exact current setup, so any change in furniture layout, room treatment, slight adjustment of speaker position, not to mention changes in hardware and software, every update in your setup changes the frequency response a lot.

With some luck any given room will be conserved and have roughly the same response going back a few months, but any further than that - it would apply correction curve to a mix with a totally different response. This is why most of our users remeasure their setups every once in a while. I suppose there are a few places out there trying to preserve their exact setup and not change anything, but that would be a tiny percentage. So going back a few years would be a complete shot in the dark and we wouldn't want to put our name on anything that's not guaranteed to be 'flat'.

The thought is interesting though and maybe there could be a worthwhile application for it; any ideas?

David Snow June 19, 2018 15:09

You do not need to replicate years back in time for the product to be helpful. For me, yes, I had kept my set up very close to the same for many years, so i have tons of mixes that could benefit. But I would not let the lack of “absolute perfection” back to the beginning of time stop Sonar works from helping people. Even if a user has had a variety of speakers over the yrs in the same studio, it is likely that the problems of the room have remained through various speakers. And again, the inverse EQ curve would be a starting point. I am not asking for perfection here. And sonar works can advertise in a way that lets a user know that the eq correction curves are a starting point. It can also mention that if is most accurate for repair of mixes made from the exact, current set up. But it can also mention that the erroneous EQs in a room would continue through years of speaker changes etc.

I feel there is unnecessarily HIDDEN data here. The program has the exact frequencies of error in the room i have worked in for 15 yrs. I would love to access and to have those curves to go back to old mixes and start fixing them. Even if not perfect, the inverse curves are a starting point. Also, it is likely that any user has many many RECENT tunes they would go back to and hear problems with. So Sonarworks does not have to provide 25 yrs of past mix fixes. Even a year of recent mixes that can be fixed is a major selling point. Even fixing a mix from a month ago would be helpful. Way better than all the data being hidden in the program with a graphical interface that is very vague. I really think you guys are missing out on 40-50% of the marketability of your product by neglecting the chance to FIX mixes made before the correction. To me, this product naturally and logically leads straight into a REPAIR program. You can keep your focus on fixing the rooms, that’s fine. But then you can ALSO sell mix repair as a feature if you intelligently explain what I have written here.

I tell you what. If I send you a recent room tuning data set, and you send me back a precise inverse EQ curve, with not only a graph, but possibly the numbers too. Such as “ -4 db, 120hz, Q value 35. If you do that I will apply it to a recent mix and send you back a corrected, much improved mix. I will show you what the next step of this program can be.

Think about it. There is data locked up in the analysis that could be very useful for repair...very useful.

thanks...

Kārlis Stenders June 20, 2018 12:03 (Edited June 20, 2018 12:05)

Good points, however still extremely difficult to get anywhere near the flat standard we're trying to reach. Either way, it's something worth thinking about, but at the moment our priorities are essential updates, a new licensing and update system, the mobile app, then a complete rebuild of Systemwide, multi-channel support is definitely a big one... there's still a lot of work to be done on our core products, before we can allocate a big amount of resources on a secondary function.

We don't wan't you to feel like we're hiding any measurement data from you though. The visual representation of the freq. response in the plug-in and Systemwide is somewhat rough - true. However in the Measure app, when you've completed your measurements, you can actually see the response spectrum in detail - all the dB an freq. values are available to see and investigate in tenths of a decimal point. I hope this helps!

David Snow June 30, 2018 03:09

So this seems to indicate I should screen shot immediately after finishing a calibration run. Correct? If correct, I would again state that in a future update, please do show the exact data in the graph, or at least have an option for it, such as a button called “detail”. etc. It would also be nice to be able to export the data into a pdf doc or word doc, with a list of everything in written form.

Kārlis Stenders July 03, 2018 13:59

Sure, you can access it anytime! Open the Measure app and click on 'Open Project'. Load any project/measurement file and you'll then be able to see all the details.

A PDF or other format export option is a really good idea. Thanks for that, we'll take note of this tip!

David Snow July 04, 2018 05:05

Oh wow, I did not know you could open the calibration at and get that detail scrolling data when scrolling across the fruencies, thanks for the tip. Before that, thinking it was a one time opportunity, I was screen recording myself scrolling through and making notes about the frequencies. Listen, I think there is a slight disconnect between the company and users desires, For example, seems like many users want more adjustability, and want to be able to know they exact frequencies. Yet I had to come here and have a special dialogue with you to figure out how to technically see the analysis. And many users want more detailed pre set loading, and an over all pre set capability which includes ALL settings such as tilt. Thus, I think soon you guys should really reassess your GUI. For example, why should a user need to load the calibration program to get detailed analysis of what the system found? That SAME capability to see detailed analysis should always be available in the systemwide GUI, just by scrolling the bottom. I think you guys should make a big list, see what users are asking for, and re-do the GUI. And people seem really sad about losing their speakers emulations. You guys got to find a way to give them back to users, (I personally don’t use those, but it seems people are bummed about losing them). You cant get sued for telling speakers how to move air. Just change the name of the function and make all the pre sets people love and wants.

Kārlis Stenders July 06, 2018 15:38

Yes, we love the simulation feature too! Unfortunately we've had to remove them due to an IP conflict, following the advice from our legal team. We are aware that other companies still simulate and we cannot answer for them. Furthermore - we have long term collaboration plans with manufacturers so ruining those relationships is not an option for us. We are looking into ways how to bring this feature back though, stay tuned!

As for the GUI, believe it or not - we're not taking over the world just yet and our resources are limited. Every little thing takes precious time and resources - we can't attend issues as fast as we'd like to. Yesterday it was ASIO support and zero latency, today it's a major upgrade to measurement precision, tomorrow it's updating and licensing system, which we are in dire need of an upgrade. Of course, we do attend to the little things and secondary functions too, but there will always be things that loose the priority battle.

Thanks for the suggestions though - constructive feedback is always appreciated and the things you've mentioned will be put on the to-do list and addressed as soon as possible!

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